Curse

Typhoon · Jun 01, 2005, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Lol. Spirits are great if you aren't with a random party. "Equal" buffing isn't "equal". Take the wimpiest ritual, Favorable Winds: All arrows travel twice as fast and deal bonus damage.

I can give you several examples of skills that add over twice as much damage, which deliver more options and flexibility in PvP.

Quote:

This benefits bow users, though it is a universal buff. Play with 8 rangers and you add a lot of damage to your side thatthe other team isn't getting access to.

This deserves its own quote.

Quote:

Take Greater Conflagration; all physical damage is fire damage; Rangers now have better armour than warriors, and if your party planned around it they can be wearing Fire resistant armours and equipping Mantra of Flames, Ward against Harm, pack Mark of Rodgort and fragility, etc.... Winter turns elemental damage to cold; equip anti-cold gear and spells and you are more resistant to the annoying air damage spiker builds out there. There's always a way to use a ritual.

The problem with stacking so many skills for damage reduction, is that you ultimately gimp your offense to a point where the opposing team can easily afford to ignore you. I'm sure the conflag/winter/mantra combo looks good in a strategy guide, but trying to self-sustain all three in a PvP match is a huge waste of time.

Ollj · Jun 02, 2005, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Theres only one thing wrong with Rangers.
They are meant to defeat Mesmers (and elementarists), they basically interrupt and block spellcasting enemies.

So they rarely have anything to hunt that they can hunt easily.

Epinephrine · Jun 02, 2005, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoon

I can give you several examples of skills that add over twice as much damage, which deliver more options and flexibility in PvP.

Lol, I said the wimpiest. And I doubt it. On an all ranger team that spell will add, for 5 energy, 6 damage per arrow per ranger for 120 seconds or so; even at only 60 arrows each that's nearly 3000 extra damage for 5 energy, or 600 damage a point. That kind of efficiency isn't anywhere else. If you are trying to imply I was suggesting running 8 Ranger teams, I wasn't, but it might work anyway. The point was to demonstrate in an incredibly obvious manner how you can gain an advantage from a supposedly "equal" effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoon

The problem with stacking so many skills for damage reduction, is that you ultimately gimp your offense to a point where the opposing team can easily afford to ignore you. I'm sure the conflag/winter/mantra combo looks good in a strategy guide, but trying to self-sustain all three in a PvP match is a huge waste of time.

I'm not suggesting running all three, I was giving weak, simple examples. If you don't see how running something like Greater Conflagration could give a team that planned around it an edge I have no idea what to say. It's one of the simpler ones to demonstrate, in that if physical damage is fire a ranger can have 115 AL instead of 70, cutting warrior damage in half off the bat. Elementalists can armour vs Fire as can monks, giving your team an edge, and redering the opponents weaker if they planned vs physical. Ward against elements now protects against both elemental and physical damage. Opponents using skills which trigger on physical damage lose out, and your team doesn't pack those. These are simple advantages which are easily gained. Nature rituals may be "even", but planning makes them easy to take advantage of.

Wesley Wyndam-Pryce · Jun 02, 2005, 05:38 AM // 05:38

I've yet to see "group needs Necro"

in a month+ of playing....

Zyuu · Jun 02, 2005, 05:42 AM // 05:42

most ranger builds aren't that pug friendly, and the ones that are, are kinda sub par.. especially compared to other professions.. and unfortunately when i pug, I end up playing my monk for this reason and the fact that the majority of the people don't know how to incorporate rangers into team builds

approx 75% of the people (especially lower rank or no voice chat) that you join a pug with will either

1)assume you have no idea what u are doing because you are a ranger
or
2)will try to tell you what to do because they believe the leader wasted a spot on a ranger, and he can make up for it by blessing u with a build he strew out his rear.. usually involving something they heard was good but they really have no idea what they are talking about

if u join a party like this, u are better of just leaving anyways

rangers can do more than just bow dmg and interrupt btw

think outside the box

Z

edit: oh... and ive seen people look for necros often for pug, though they usually do so because they want the necro skills, not soul reaping. unforunately, ele/n can do most everything just as good as a necro can for pvp but usually dont know the necro skills as well as a primary necro

also ranger really shines with arranged parties of friends/guildies or the like

Xinil · Jun 02, 2005, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anariel

Talendor Elessedil (starter of this topic) is one of the best rangers I know in PvP! He runs a great build and has great damage. A party would be dumb not to take him. :P

I've seen mostly ranger parties use some extremely unorthodox tactics and win some nice fights. I think they do need to buff the damage on the rangers though. Their damage output should be far above that of monks, necros, and mesmers.

Thank you very much for the compliment, Rose (in-game char name).

I'm very happy to see this topic take off. Some interesting points have been brought up.

I have still not been able to get into a pug since making this topic (how pathetic). If I want a group, 50% of the time I have to make it myself. The other 50% is by asking friends if they have a spot. It's quite bothersome.

The problem that I'm seeing is that there are just too many rangers out there not doing what they're supposed to be doing. This causes an intense dislike to the class and a huge "we don't need them" attitude.

Can it be fixed over time without AreaNet making some tweaking changes? I doubt it. :-/

Vermilion Okeanos · Jun 02, 2005, 08:52 AM // 08:52

I find ranger to be very anti-mesemer...

Most mesemer that use domination to shut down another caster or even another mesemer... that means 2 mesemer can backfire each other and render each other useless... and hence... 7vs7 for at least 10 sec.

However, if you put a ranger on the mesemer... the mesemer who is build to anti-caster have almost no chance of fighting back... and mesemer will feel like he/she was there just to spectate and take beating. 7vs8 till the end.

Louis Ste Colombe · Jun 02, 2005, 09:45 AM // 09:45

I am contemplating playing a Ranger...

I already play a Mesmer, and I got to say facing Rangers is one of my least favourite sight. I really, really don't like facing them.
Rangers are nearly automatically off my target list; I don't seem to be able to do anything to them of interest. So I target other stuff. And eventually, I know a ranger will spot me and shot me to death. Not much I can do about it though.

It's also true (although a little less) for other professions: rangers are not good target. That's a kind of a strenght, isn't it?

Louis,

Macel · Jun 02, 2005, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Ste Colombe

I am contemplating playing a Ranger...

I already play a Mesmer, and I got to say facing Rangers is one of my least favourite sight. I really, really don't like facing them.
Rangers are nearly automatically off my target list; I don't seem to be able to do anything to them of interest. So I target other stuff. And eventually, I know a ranger will spot me and shot me to death. Not much I can do about it though.

It's also true (although a little less) for other professions: rangers are not good target. That's a kind of a strenght, isn't it?

Louis,

Well it could be considered a strength or merely a function of the perception that rangers are weak offensively, and not easy to kill, so why bother killing them first?

Mesmers generally are most effective against casters with spells, enchantments... Rangers generally dont cast spells or use enchantments (though we often have a spell or two from our secondary), they use skill and preparations for the most part... The kinds of spells that are most effective against rangers are the ones that ignore armor, which are usually magic DoTs like phantasm, poisons, bleeding and diseases... We have nothing to counter those, really..

Louis Ste Colombe · Jun 02, 2005, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macel

Well it could be considered a strength or merely a function of the perception that rangers are weak offensively, and not easy to kill, so why bother killing them first?

Mesmers generally are most effective against casters with spells, enchantments... Rangers generally dont cast spells or use enchantments (though we often have a spell or two from our secondary), they use skill and preparations for the most part... The kinds of spells that are most effective against rangers are the ones that ignore armor, which are usually magic DoTs like phantasm, poisons, bleeding and diseases... We have nothing to counter those, really..

I fully agree with both your statements... Still, being not easy to kill is being not easy to kill, and that's something.

As a mesmer, I get targetted a bit in... When I get a warrior attacking me, sometimes I'll get a bit of help, and I am not completly defenseless. When I got a ranger targetting me, I am in for a world of pain; I can't defend myself well, I can't really bother the ranger (for reason you point at), and noone will take the ranger off me. And voilà, am dead.
If I don't get assaulted by warriors, I think rangers looking for soft mesmers target are my first cause of death (or would be... if there were more of them

)

Louis,

yong · Jun 02, 2005, 01:43 PM // 13:43

i used ranger and found that it was a good class
just that most ppl do not know to appreciate it as they r supporter and tend to irriate enemy
however, ranger require experience and a good combination of skills to be good in pvp ... they can be very good or very bad

my ranger could easily owned a monk while my teammates hold the enemies
Poison Arrow to do DOT
Debilitating Shot to drain energy
Distracting Shot to interrupt and disable their skill and make their waste their energy - require practise
The monk will have no energy to heal and u can enjoy watching poison kill him

yong · Jun 02, 2005, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Another thing is Ranger can developed into many different build without considering secondary profession

For Anti-Warrior - Throw Dirt/Lightning Reflexes/Whirling Defense/Pin Down
For Anti-Caster - Concussion Shot/Distracting Shot/Choking Gas

Debilitating Shot/Poison Arrow/Distracting Shot work well against everyone in pvp

However, ranger's weakness their healing ability
Troll Unguent take 3 sec to cast which is too long
Healing Spring is easily interrupted and the area is too small and mostly like for ur own use.

30PSI · Jun 02, 2005, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Nice input Yong, couldn't have said it better myself. Rangers don't suck, if you think that, you suck at being one. I can completely shutdown any wars/casters with my ranger. Ranger with lightning reflexes, whirling defense, and throw dirt use these 3 skills at the right time you can become immuned to physical damage, wars will never be able to put a scratch on you. Only thing that hurt rangers is DoT because the lack of healing. Ranger was my 4th char to ascend and I'm in love with it, I was messing around in yak's bend arena last week and here's proof that rangers don't suck if play right :P

Mercurio Riven · Jun 02, 2005, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Wow you had a nice streak at yak's bend. Doesn't prove a thing. Rangers still blow. Half of your skills are dedicated to keeping you alive lol. The more teams play together on a streak, the better teamwork they develop. I've even managed decent streaks with a ranger (using all beastmastery on yak's bend). I'm not really impressed at all. By the way, my streaks were only 22 and 18 and a few in double digits.

Bazooka · Jun 02, 2005, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Never bring a ranger to a gunfight

Mercurio Riven · Jun 02, 2005, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazooka

Never bring a ranger to a gunfight

I agree 100%. I think that streak was done in spite of rather than because of the ranger.

30PSI · Jun 02, 2005, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

just that most ppl do not know to appreciate it as they r supporter and tend to irriate enemy

You seem to failed in to this category my friend. That team will never made it that far w/o me cycle through every single enemies keeping -7 degen on them constantly, cripple warriors, and disrupting powerful skills/spells/res signet. Rangers are not there for pure damage output, you're there to stack conditions, and prevent people from doing what they're supposed to do thus being said it takes keen eyes, quick fingers, and skills which req the class to be somewhat harder to play than any other classes and that lead to people like you who screams rangers suck lol.

Macel · Jun 02, 2005, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Yong's got the right idea.

I played a PVP monk, got on a good team with another monk and a couple good damage dealers.. We were unstoppable for 20 matches, though we were fighting a lot of the same people (not many were on at that time of day). Eventually they wisened up and figured a strategy to beat us. How they did it? They had a ranger with spirit of frozen earth and poison dmg.

Shrapnel_Magnet · Jun 02, 2005, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Mercurio, I don't think I'm alone when I say that your slanted views and close minded judgements are not entirely welcome... perhaps you can enlighten us about a character class or class combo that does not "blow".

I agree, 78 wins in the 1-17 arena is worth less than a Plank of Wood in Guild Wars, especially with a W/R on the team.

Personally, I was never a fan of Necromancers and used to discredit them almost entirely in competitive PvP... however, I've come to accept them as useful members of a team and they can be clutch characters if the build calls for it. There are only a couple combos that I still have yet to embrace as quality class combos. (If you want to know which, I think only the W/R and N/W now)

Obviously you didn't always think that Rangers were terrible, as you said that you've played them. So what happened? You gave it a shot and it didn't work out?

I play a terrible monk... in fact, I'd go so far as to say that, as it stands, I can't play a Healing Monk right now. Are Monks terrible? I'm sure we know the answer to that.

Lasher Dragon · Jun 02, 2005, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Monks SUCK!!!!

Hehehe

It's bad enough when someone who has never played a Ranger says they suck, but when someone HAS played a Ranger and couldn't make it work, it becomes apparent that perhaps playing a Ranger well is just too complicated for some people.